[JPL] Bobby/Lazaro

Bobby Jackson ftapache1 at sbcglobal.net
Sat Jul 29 22:32:56 EDT 2006


Hi Jae,

Don't mean to discourage the musical conversation and as I've mentioned, 
I've enjoyed the banter, but I'm feeling the footsteps a little more these 
days understandably so.  In my shop I'm also encouraged by the fact that 
some of the work I'm doing for jazz will involve television.  How that will 
manifest in the future is something that I'm still working out.  If anyone 
has any ideas how that might work I'd love to hear from you.  It is a work 
in progress.

Just want to keep the pulse of JPL a little more focused on programming 
issues in light of all of the recent news involving some of the larger 
markets that are struggling for their very existence.

Much respect to you, Rick and Lazaro in sharing your perspectives on the 
music.  Your voices are extremely valuable and compelling.

Aloha,

Bobby
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jae Sinnett" <jaejazz at yahoo.com>
To: "Jazz Programmers Mailing List" <jazzproglist at jazzweek.com>
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 1:22 PM
Subject: [JPL] Bobby/Lazaro


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> Bobby, I understand your post and perhaps it reflects the position of 
> other "programmers" here but I would say it's okay to deal with issues on 
> this list that relate directly to the "music" once in a while. This 
> doesn't happen often so why not? After all isn't this ultimately what we 
> are dealing with? Music? Without jazz music there would be no jazz radio. 
> Without jazz radio there would still be jazz music.
>
>   We talk about programming issues all the time and in that regard how has 
> it helped? Formats keep changing, numbers are getting smaller and I keep 
> saying....like a broken record.... that if we can't figure out a way to 
> get folk to understand more clearly what they are listening to with jazz 
> music - without dumbing down the music to nonsense... then jazz radio and 
> jazz music in general will continue to have problems. So lets have some 
> occasional musical conversations. Look at the post Giz just sent in....the 
> sales are flat which isn't news. The same reasons for this are the same 
> across the board - including radio. Few are listening to me when I talk 
> about this mainly because this observation is viewed to be coming from a 
> musician. I am also a programmer and clearly understand radio programming 
> and clearly understand this music and how it's interpreted by it's 
> listeners. So once in while let a "music" thread run.....if not for 
> anything else - to present folk another
> perspective.
>
>   Lazaro, keep in mind I didn't make that statement about playing out. I 
> just quoted. You asked if I believed it.....well...yes and no because 
> there is validity in the genre and then there's BS. I'll say this before I 
> go further.....you don't know much about my music past but I've been on 
> stage with Blythe, Freeman, Abdu Salim and a host of other so called 
> "outside" musicians. That's part of my musical make up. In fact I was in 
> this before I played straight up jazz.
>
>  Now to say I was putting down  the genre.........why would I do that? I 
> didn't go there at all with the exception of Braxton but you put other 
> names in my bag when I wasn't looking :>) I don't care for him for various 
> reasons but I love Cecil, Ayler, Ornette. You say Braxton's fundamentals 
> started with Ornette but you're speaking about conceptual fundamentals. I 
> wasn't. How you embrace "technical" fundamentals early on will determine 
> your level of limitations or possibilities and THEN determine how you work 
> with "conceptual" fundamentals.
>
>  You don't start with Ornette anyway because in doing so you would never 
> understand him. Braxton missed chapters in my opinion. The most important 
> ones. The ones that dealt with emotional pullulating. They would have 
> shaped him in terms of methodology... the way the Texas blues tenor out of 
> the 40's shaped Ornette. Then he would understand Ornette. Do you think he 
> really does? The blues permeated Ayler, Trane and Cecil and they let it. 
> That's why they reach you. I hear...not feel Braxton. What about you? I 
> bet you feel Ornette and Ayler. I can't help but feel he simply wins by 
> association if you will.... in your book of "experimentalists" because he 
> is one. I am curious as to which of the "experimentalists" you don't care 
> for and why?
>
>  What's also interesting and something I greatly appreciate is that your 
> post makes me think about how surprisingly small and underappreciated the 
> genre is today and how your articulation can perhaps get some to place 
> renewed value on in this category of creative music.
>
>  You asked if Jackie McLean lacked fundamentals........ Ah oh......I would 
> answer yes in some areas and I guess any musician does in some regard but 
> one area with him was in his embrochure. Not using spell check here. I 
> know when the Jackie McLean thread was happening many talked about his 
> intonation and to me some were trying to justify why he played out of 
> tune. I stayed out of that conversation because I truly believe Jackie 
> simply couldn't play in tune - which from my perspective isn't a good 
> thing. This perhaps added a sense of intrigue and unique-ness to his 
> presentation but it's still out of tune and for me....never sounded good. 
> He's always been a puzzle to me anyway. I never could figure out how 
> someone could play so much saxophone that out of tune. I'll leave this one 
> here.
>
>  Finally....
>
>  "To say out pieces or bands don't work because they don't work with
> inside principals is not meeting the music on it's own terms."
>
>  Nope. Not what I said or implied but I will say those "terms" can be 
> subjective. Again I'm talking about fundamentals and they have nothing to 
> do with outside or in. Lets put it in questions.....What kind of 
> programmer would you be if you didn't understand the "clock?" Or your 
> audience research? Or how much depth would you have heard from Ayler if 
> Trane never preceded him? Or if the blues never existed what kind of 
> Ornette would we have? Everything great has a point of departure that 
> helped in defining that greatness. This is my point but as I'm sure you 
> know greatness can be acheived with a narrow scope of perfected 
> fundamentals.
>
>  Jae Sinnett
>
> Lazaro Vega <wblv.wblu.fm at gmail.com> wrote:
>  -------------------------------------------
>
> This week's sponsor: Christian Jacob Trio CONTRADICTIONS
>
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>
> The Jazz Programmers Mailing List is a free service provided by JazzWeek.
> For more information visit us at http://www.jazzweek.com/jpl
> To become a sponsor contact Ed Trefzger
> at ed.trefzger at jazzweek.com or 866-453-6401.
>
> -------------------------------------------
> Jae: "Intonation. Your word choice is interesting...."different."
> Funny. Come on Rick...you either play in tune or you don't. You know
> it and I know it. We're not in Asia or India. Our cultural tuning
> system is based on A-440 period - mainly because of the piano. Why do
> so many play out of tune? A lack of fundamentals. Plain and simple.
> I'm reminded of Max Roach........ When you listen to him with Clifford
> just about every time he played a four or eight bar break or better
> yet...a solo.... the tempo picked up - at times dramatically. But when
> the band came back in he brought the tempo back to where they started.
> His purpose for this was effectual - and intentional for emotional
> impact. Same with intonation. If you want to play sharp or flat and
> stretch tonalities do so as an "effect" and not have that as the
> means."
>
> So we say Jackie McLean and Von Freeman lacked/lack fundementals? Or
> that Pee Wee Russel should have left the clarinet at home?
>
> Braxton's fundementals start with Ornette, Brubeck and Tristano and go
> from there into experimentalist classical composers who are redefining
> music basics on their own terms. That's why the music is called
> "outside." They're outside of expecations or familiarity, and
> fundementals are open to as much "fuckery" as contour, dymanics,
> collective improvisations and ensemble organization and
> disorganization, all the while soloing in a style starting, not with
> Johnny Hodges, but with the strange and improbable intersection of
> Paul Desmond and Albert Ayler.
>
> I mean, look at Steve Lacy who recorded all kinds of extreme sonic
> music with electronics, with Evan Parker and Derek Bailey, but who
> also wrote "Esteem" for Johnny Hodges and led an ensemble who's
> instrumentation was inspired by the Jimmie Noone Apex Club Orchestra
> with Earl Hines (clarinet and alto for Noone, soprano and alto for
> Lacy). Now there's a jazz musician: Steve Lacy. He was able to flow
> with the one constant in jazz. No not the blues. Change. And he fused
> music with his interest in literary and painterly masterpieces from
> his generation, the art song tradition famliar to his wife -- an
> amazing fusion of influences.
>
> To say out pieces or bands don't work because they don't work with
> inside principals is not meeting the music on it's own terms. Velocity
> happens -- Braxton's bands during the Arista period played that hard
> driving angular post-bop that had a strange, accordian like sense of
> rhythmic tension and release. Mark Helias swung his ass off under
> Braxton -- Anthony's on top of or ahead of the beat phrasing recalls
> Stitt, or Earl Bostic - it comes out of the black musical tradition,
> and then goes very much it's own weird way.
>
> And there are many examples of Cecil playing the blues.
>
> The blues are all Ornette is about.
>
> To tweeze this influence out of them is to deny, or avoid, the effect
> of the entire melange.
>
> If you don't like it, fine by me. If you don't play it, let's hear
> what you are doing on your terms. But before putting down the out cats
> please consider Ornette and Albert Ayler were powerful enough
> musically to turn the head of no less a musician than John Coltrane.
> -------------------------------------------
>
> This week's sponsor: Christian Jacob Trio CONTRADICTIONS
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> Going for adds July 25th
>
> The new release by the Christian Jacob Trio
> ''Contradictions''. A look at the music of Michel Petrucciani.
>
> Piano: Christian Jacob - Bass: Trey Henry - Drums: Ray Brinker
> Released on label ''Wilderjazz''
>
> ''Contradictions'' focuses on the original composition of the late pianist 
> and composer Michel Petrucciani.
>
> Not only does this project bring our attention back to Michel's great 
> melodies, but it allows Christian to use them as a creative platform for 
> his trio.
>
> For more information or to request an on air copy please contact:
> GROOV Marketing and Consulting
> 877-476-6832
> mark at groovmarketing.com or josh at groovmarketing.com
>
> Also feel free to email Christian with any comments or questions: 
> christian at christianjacob.com
>
> Please visit www.wilderjazz.com
>
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>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs.Try it free.
> -------------------------------------------
>
> This week's sponsor: Christian Jacob Trio CONTRADICTIONS
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> Going for adds July 25th
>
> The new release by the Christian Jacob Trio
> ''Contradictions''. A look at the music of Michel Petrucciani.
>
> Piano: Christian Jacob - Bass: Trey Henry - Drums: Ray Brinker
> Released on label ''Wilderjazz''
>
> ''Contradictions'' focuses on the original composition of the late pianist 
> and composer Michel Petrucciani.
>
> Not only does this project bring our attention back to Michel's great 
> melodies, but it allows Christian to use them as a creative platform for 
> his trio.
>
> For more information or to request an on air copy please contact:
> GROOV Marketing and Consulting
> 877-476-6832
> mark at groovmarketing.com  or  josh at groovmarketing.com
>
> Also feel free to email Christian with any comments or questions: 
> christian at christianjacob.com
>
> Please visit www.wilderjazz.com
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> Send jazzproglist mailing list submissions to
> jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.jazzweek.com/mailman/listinfo/jazzproglist
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> jazzproglist-request at jazzweek.com
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> jazzproglist-owner at jazzweek.com 



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