[JPL] Jazz and RnB

louisx at verizon.net louisx at verizon.net
Mon Aug 18 11:30:58 EDT 2008


The label Rock 'n' Roll helped the music cross over to the white audience. 
R&B, while crossing over to white audiences to some extent, was still 
considered black music, so the R&B label made it more difficult to cross 
over than  the new label of "Rock 'n' Roll".  This is what I mean about 
labels being meaningless. They are useful for marketing, period.

Regarding Atlantic Records, Ruth Brown's sales helped build that company, 
but she ended up having to work as a housekeeper on Long Island for a long 
time after her fame subsided. It wasn't until the R&B Foundation pressed 
Atlantic for back royalties that Ruth Brown received part of the money she 
was due.  As far as I know, neither Ahmet Ertegun nor Jerry Wexler had to 
work as housekeepers after starting Atlantic.

Regarding the dumbing of jazz, new styles have always made things difficult 
for the styles preceding them. Chuck Berry recorded his first hit material 
when Muddy Waters suggested he do so for Chess Records. Berry's style 
eclipsed Muddy's and ended the popularity of Chicago blues. The Beatles 
wiped out all that preceded them even though they idolized all of that 
music. It just happens. I actually think Norah Jones re-vitalized an 
interest in jazz for young people. I don't think she had any effect on jazz, 
but she brought a wider audience to the style, and surely spawned a new army 
of standup bass players in rock music. While this may not be all that jazz 
fans hope for, it's good.


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jae Sinnett" <jaejazz at yahoo.com>
To: <jazzproglist at jazzweek.com>
Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 11:09 PM
Subject: Re: [JPL] Jazz and RnB


This week's sponsor:  Lisa Hilton

Composer/pianist Lisa Hilton's latest release, ''Sunny Day Theory'' heads to 
jazz radio next week.  Hilton is joined by top talent Lewis Nash on drums, 
Larry Grenadier on bass and Brice Winston on tenor sax.  Eighteen time 
Grammy winner, Al Schmitt recorded and mixed the 12 track release.

What is the ''Sunny Day Theory''?  Hilton smiles, &amp;quot;My engineer 
Larry Mah made me laugh recounting a 'Foggy Day Theory', so I countered with 
a 'Sunny Day Theory' which basically assumes that difficulties, if embraced 
honestly,  create opportunity for growth.  Life can be challenging: I've 
realized after a rough year that the complex can be dealt with one step at a 
time, that there can be depth in something as simple as a melody, beauty 
within the blues, and that with tomorrow there is always the hope for a 
sunny day.''
LisaHiltonMusic.com
''Sunny Day Theory''/Ruby Slippers Productions promotion by Jane 
Dashow/Jazzzdog.com

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

For sure Tom...without a doubt soul music's connection to the black church 
is profound. Even Elvis was touched in this regard and I do believe he was 
the first white artist to have a top ten hit on the R&B charts. I think he 
had two hits there. Nat King Cole even had one or two songs there which was 
interesting because most of his "hits" appeared on the pop charts. This was 
after Rhythm and Blues replaced Billboard's "Harlem Hit Parade" as the 
principle black music chart.

What I could never understand though was why Alan Freed started labeling it 
rock and roll...particularly when his radio show in Cleveland at the time 
featured primarily R&B artists. He was also very connected to and worked 
with an African American record store in the area...and as I understand 
it...featuring artists on his show with what the store was carrying. When he 
left Cleveland and went to NYC he continued to promote R&B to a white 
audience as rock and roll. Some black artists like Little Richard didn't 
mind being labeled rock and roll. An interesting bit of irony here is that 
there are only four black artists that are in the Rock n Roll Hall of Fame 
and to also receive the Rhythm & Blues Hall of Fame Pioneer achievement 
award. They were Little Richard, Fats Domino, James Brown and Ray Charles. I 
do believe Bo Didley might have been added to the later but not totally 
sure.

Arturo talked about Louis Jordan. Something that rarely gets mentioned about 
him was that he was also a major black film personality, appearing in dozens 
of so called "soundies" which were these somewhat strangely produced 
promotional film clips and he also made several cameos in some short films 
and mainstream features. And speaking of Wexler...Jordan had his most 
successful year in 48...the year Wexler coined the phrase Rhythm and Blues 
and Jordan dominated those charts then with about three major hits based on 
his classic jump blues style and some boogie woogie. He sold millions of 
records and was also considered to be one of the first black artist to have 
crossover success with the white audience.

Jae Sinnett


--- On Sun, 8/17/08, Tom Reney <tr at wfcr.org> wrote:

> From: Tom Reney <tr at wfcr.org>
> Subject: Re: [JPL] Jazz and RnB
> To: jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
> Date: Sunday, August 17, 2008, 8:00 PM
> This week's sponsor:  Lisa Hilton
>
> Composer/pianist Lisa Hilton's latest release,
> ''Sunny Day Theory'' heads to jazz radio
> next week.  Hilton is joined by top talent Lewis Nash on
> drums, Larry Grenadier on bass and Brice Winston on tenor
> sax.  Eighteen time Grammy winner, Al Schmitt recorded and
> mixed the 12 track release.
>
> What is the ''Sunny Day Theory''?  Hilton
> smiles, &amp;quot;My engineer Larry Mah made me laugh
> recounting a 'Foggy Day Theory', so I countered with
> a 'Sunny Day Theory' which basically assumes that
> difficulties, if embraced honestly,  create opportunity for
> growth.  Life can be challenging: I've realized after a
> rough year that the complex can be dealt with one step at a
> time, that there can be depth in something as simple as a
> melody, beauty within the blues, and that with tomorrow
> there is always the hope for a sunny day.''
> LisaHiltonMusic.com
> ''Sunny Day Theory''/Ruby Slippers
> Productions promotion by Jane Dashow/Jazzzdog.com
>
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
> I would agree that there's a distinct sound to r&b
> in the post-Wexler
> period, and it's called Soul.  As a producer, he was
> instrumental in
> encouraging Ray Charles to mix the sacred with the secular,
> to do what came
> "naturally" to Ray, and the artistic as well as
> commercial success of this
> controversial innovation spawned soul music.  The style was
> embraced by
> countless other singers, most with either formal or
> informal gospel
> backgrounds (Aretha Franklin, Otis Redding, Percy Sledge,
> OV Wright) and its
> cultural vitality was reflected in jazz as well, from
> Horace Silver's The
> Preacher, Jimmy Smith's The Sermon, Mingus's
> Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting
> (the album Blues'n'Roots having been encouraged by
> the Ertuguns at
> Atlantic), to Lee Morgan's The Rumproller.  I think
> it's also important to
> remember that soul music had huge significance for African
> American culture,
> that this distinctly black idiom was soon getting over with
> a mass audience,
> and that it's connection with the church gave it a
> substantial tie-in with
> the Civil Rights movement.
>
> Gospel came with a very pronounced and dependable back
> beat, and soul
> reflects this.  Muddy Waters was working on something
> similar in his blues,
> which he characterized as having a "big drop after
> beat," precise "like a
> clock."  So the music definitely had a less
> elasticized rhythmic feel than
> what preceded it, and in turn it's had a strong
> influence on subsequent
> black dance music styles.
>
> I don't agree that pre-r&b jazz was performed first
> and foremost with
> "artistic achievement" in mind, except in rare
> cases. There was a widespread
> populist instinct in jazz from early on, and the music
> generally straddled
> the line between musical integrity and commercial success
> once records began
> being made in the 1920's.  Happily, for a couple of
> decades, jazz was part
> of the mix that Americans bought and paid for, but the
> "hits" of that era
> were hardly the cream of the crop of the great records we
> appreciate in
> retrospect.  I'd say the arrival of the pure artist in
> jazz does not appear
> until Bebop, but it's not like Bird and Diz didn't
> seek commercial acclaim
> either.
>
> As for that scene with Bird in the Eastwood movie, I've
> heard that
> criticized as not truly reflective of Parker's openness
> about music in
> general, that rather than mock a honking r&b tenor
> soloist he would have
> jammed with him-- and probably transposed keys to boot!
>
> Tom Reney
> "Jazz à la Mode"
> Monday-Friday, 8-11 p.m.
>
> WFCR 88.5 FM
> NPR News and Music for Western New England
> Hampshire House
> 131 County Circle
> Amherst, MA 01003-9257
>
> tr at wfcr.org
> www.wfcr.org
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jae Sinnett" <jaejazz at yahoo.com>
> To: <jazzproglist at jazzweek.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 12:33 PM
> Subject: Re: [JPL] Jazz and RnB
>
>
> > This week's sponsor:  Lisa Hilton
> >
> > Composer/pianist Lisa Hilton's latest release,
> ''Sunny Day Theory'' heads
> > to jazz radio next week.  Hilton is joined by top
> talent Lewis Nash on
> > drums, Larry Grenadier on bass and Brice Winston on
> tenor sax.  Eighteen
> > time Grammy winner, Al Schmitt recorded and mixed the
> 12 track release.
> >
> > What is the ''Sunny Day Theory''?
> Hilton smiles, &amp;quot;My engineer
> > Larry Mah made me laugh recounting a 'Foggy Day
> Theory', so I countered
> > with a 'Sunny Day Theory' which basically
> assumes that difficulties, if
> > embraced honestly,  create opportunity for growth.
> Life can be
> > challenging: I've realized after a rough year that
> the complex can be
> > dealt with one step at a time, that there can be depth
> in something as
> > simple as a melody, beauty within the blues, and that
> with tomorrow there
> > is always the hope for a sunny day.''
> > LisaHiltonMusic.com
> > ''Sunny Day Theory''/Ruby Slippers
> Productions promotion by Jane
> > Dashow/Jazzzdog.com
> >
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > Tom, good points. You, Eric and Arturo would all be
> correct in that most
> > of what you discussed in your posts reflects the
> visionary variety and
> > unpredictability of great R&B music prior to when
> Jerry Wexler started
> > producing those classic Atlantic sides. In my
> view...and this was one of
> > my main points in my initial post about this... was
> that once Wexler
> > started producing there became a predictability and
> I'll even go as far to
> > say...an expectation of the sound from that point with
> most of
> > R&B...simply because the intentions of producing
> the music shifted. There
> > always was a swinging kind of elasticity in the rhythm
> of the music and
> > while played primarily for dancing there still was a
> high level of
> > improvisation and Duke's Newport classic reflects
> this. That started to
> > change though with Wexler and it affected jazz
> tremendously IMO.
> >
> > Obviously early so called R&B...although it
> wasn't termed that before
> > Wexler...was profoundly connected to jazz and visa
> versa. So my opinion
> > was if you take music that that was performed first
> and foremost from the
> > viewpoint of having an artistic achievement...and
> shifting those
> > intentions to now having a commercial success be your
> priority...it is
> > dumbing down the music. I'm reminded of the
> classic scene in "Bird" when
> > Parker walked into a theater and recognized a
> saxophonist from one of the
> > cutting sessions...playing this new kind of R&B
> and the placed was packed.
> > During their break Bird went in and stole the guys
> horn and ran. They
> > chased him and when caught he said..."I just
> wanted to see if this horn
> > could play in any key other than Bb."
> >
> > Jae Sinnett
> >
> >
> > --- On Sun, 8/17/08, Tom Reney <tr at wfcr.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Tom Reney <tr at wfcr.org>
> >> Subject: Re: [JPL] Jazz and RnB
> >> To: jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
> >> Date: Sunday, August 17, 2008, 12:03 PM
> >> This week's sponsor:  Lisa Hilton
> >>
> >> Composer/pianist Lisa Hilton's latest release,
> >> ''Sunny Day Theory'' heads to jazz
> radio
> >> next week.  Hilton is joined by top talent Lewis
> Nash on
> >> drums, Larry Grenadier on bass and Brice Winston
> on tenor
> >> sax.  Eighteen time Grammy winner, Al Schmitt
> recorded and
> >> mixed the 12 track release.
> >>
> >> What is the ''Sunny Day Theory''?
> Hilton
> >> smiles, &amp;quot;My engineer Larry Mah made
> me laugh
> >> recounting a 'Foggy Day Theory', so I
> countered with
> >> a 'Sunny Day Theory' which basically
> assumes that
> >> difficulties, if embraced honestly,  create
> opportunity for
> >> growth.  Life can be challenging: I've
> realized after a
> >> rough year that the complex can be dealt with one
> step at a
> >> time, that there can be depth in something as
> simple as a
> >> melody, beauty within the blues, and that with
> tomorrow
> >> there is always the hope for a sunny
> day.''
> >> LisaHiltonMusic.com
> >> ''Sunny Day Theory''/Ruby Slippers
> >> Productions promotion by Jane Dashow/Jazzzdog.com
> >>
> >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >>
> >> I had a memorable encounter with the garrulous
> Jerry Wexler
> >> at a Fabulous
> >> Thunderbirds show at the Bottom Line on
> Valentine's Day
> >> in 1983.
> >>
> >> And this discussion of jazz and r&b reminds me
> of a
> >> line that T-Birds
> >> guitarist Jimmie Vaughan said of his group's
> conception
> >> back in the 70's:
> >> "We're just lookin' for a new way to
> do the
> >> boogie woogie."  If you go back
> >> to the earliest piano blues recordings of the
> 20's,
> >> you'll hear the basics
> >> of most that has developed since then in the way
> of Kansas
> >> City swing, jump
> >> blues, New Orleans r&b, rock'n'roll,
> soul-- the
> >> unfolding of a half-century
> >> of music is right there in prototypes created by
> Cow Cow
> >> Davenport, Pine Top
> >> Smith, Roosevelt Sykes and countless others.
> Listen to Joe
> >> Turner and Pete
> >> Johnson's 1938 "Roll 'Em Pete,"
> and there
> >> you'll hear reduced to voice and
> >> piano the whole dynamic of big band swing.  Turner
> sings
> >> whole choruses
> >> comprised of "Yes, Yes," "Well,
> Alright
> >> Then," and "Bye Baby Bye," that
> >> mirror the call and response of reed and brass
> sections,
> >> and Johnson lays
> >> down the basic rhythmic foundation that in a
> larger group,
> >> whether Basie,
> >> Louis Jordan, T-Bone Walker, Jimmy Reed, or B.B.
> King would
> >> be played by a 3
> >> or 4 piece section.  Robert Johnson's genius
> as a
> >> self-accompanied guitarist
> >> in the mid-1930'a was his ability to maintain
> a boogie
> >> pattern while
> >> simultaneously playing melodic lines.
> >>
> >> Doin' the boogie woogie, or as Count Basie put
> it,
> >> swingin' the blues, was a
> >> sufficient pursuit for many musicians.  But blues
> masters
> >> like Duke
> >> Ellington, Lester Young, Roy Eldridge, Billie
> Holiday,
> >> Teddy Wilson, and
> >> Charlie Christian had broader musical visions, and
> their
> >> greatest work of
> >> the 30's and early 40's reached a pinnacle
> of
> >> creativity in the swing idiom.
> >> Nothing much was going to exceed these
> achievements, and
> >> thus it was
> >> inevitable that the next generation would develop
> greater
> >> challenges for
> >> itself.  Bebop was the result, and its fractured
> melodies,
> >> harmonic
> >> complexities, and dance-defying polyrhythms made
> it the
> >> music of a select
> >> listenership, while jump blues, r&b, pop and
> >> rock'n'roll maintained a
> >> danceable beat and lyrical subject matter enjoyed
> by the
> >> masses.
> >>
> >> Tom Reney
> >>
> >>
> >> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >> >
> >> > Arturo Gomez wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Blues has always had the jump aspect to
> it making
> >> it very danceable and
> >> >> while pre-WW2 big band jazz graced many a
> dance
> >> hall and ballroom around
> >> >> the
> >> >> country much to the dancer's delight,
> jump
> >> blues was the dance music of
> >> >> juke
> >> >> joints and house parties especially in
> areas
> >> outside an urban hub.
> >> >>
> >> >> After WW2 it was difficult to keep big
> bands
> >> touring due to travel costs
> >> >> so
> >> >> many former bib band members scaled down
> and began
> >> creating combos, big
> >> >> band
> >> >> swing with jump blues sensibilities, this
> was most
> >> noticeable in Los
> >> >> Angeles
> >> >> with groups like Louis Jordan &
> Tympany Five,
> >> Roy Milton and his Solid
> >> >> Senders, Joe and Jimmy Liggins & the
> Honey
> >> Drippers, Roy Milton, T-Bone
> >> >> Walker, Pee Wee Crayton, Big Joe Turner,
> Wynonie
> >> Harris and many others.
> >> >> Johnny Otis the "Godfather of
> RnB" who
> >> came out of the territorial big
> >> >> band
> >> >> scene as a drummer knew a good thing when
> he saw
> >> it and opened up the
> >> >> Barrelhouse club on Central Avenue that
> became
> >> the hub for the new RnB
> >> >> scene which are the real roots of rock n
> roll,
> >> basically RnB with a new
> >> >> moniker. Forget that man from Tupelo and
> Memphis,
> >> Louis Jordan is the
> >> >> King
> >> >> of Rock n Roll in my book, a proto-typer
> rapper as
> >> well. Vote Jordan for
> >> >> President !!!
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Arturo
> >> >
> >> > I have always thought that a number of
> factors went
> >> into the creation and
> >> > growth of R&B. I think that the west
> coast jump
> >> blues that you mentioned
> >> > was one of them. I have also thought that
> >> Chicago's electric blues and the
> >> > east coast vocal ensembles, descendants of
> the Mills
> >> Brothers and The Ink
> >> > Spots, were also important factors in the
> development
> >> of R&B. And of
> >> > course, there is New Orleans which has also
> was
> >> rocking early on.
> >> >
> >> > It's interesting to note that Johnny
> Otis, the man
> >> you called "The
> >> > Godfather of R&B" is Greek.
> >> >
> >> > Some years ago, when Bryant Gumbel was
> hosting the
> >> Today Show, they did a
> >> > week long feature on the history of rock and
> roll.
> >> They interviewed Bo
> >> > Didley, Jerry Lee Lewis, Little Richard and
> Chuck
> >> Berry. They asked Chuck
> >> > who was the first rock and roller. He said it
> was Fats
> >> Waller. I have a
> >> > book called "What Was The First Rock
> & Roll
> >> Record?" The first thing
> >> > listed is "The Blues pt 2" from the
> JATP
> >> session in LA on July 2,1944.
> >> >
> >> > I just interviewed author John Fass Morton
> about his
> >> book, "Backstory In
> >> > Blue: Ellington at Newport '56. He and
> several of
> >> the people he
> >> > interviewed in the book refer to Diminuendo
> in Blue
> >> and Crescendo in Blue
> >> > as R&B. I had never thought of it that
> way but
> >> after I listened again, I
> >> > could certainly hear what they were saying.
> Those two
> >> pieces were written
> >> > in either 1937 or 1938. Basie and Lionel
> Hampton's
> >> Big Band both recorded
> >> > music that sounded sounded like R&B.
> >> >
> >> > Eric Jackson
> >> > Mon - Thurs 8 pm - mid.
> >> > 89.7 FM WGBH Boston
> >> > www.wgbh.org/jazz
> >> >
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Jazz Programmers' Mailing List:
> >> jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
> >> List information:
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
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