[JPL] Jazz and RnB

Jae Sinnett jaejazz at yahoo.com
Mon Aug 18 12:29:25 EDT 2008


"Regarding the dumbing of jazz, new styles have always made things difficult for the styles preceding them." 

It depends on how you're looking at it in determining how a new style negatively affected what preceded it. Bop was a highly complex musical concept that expanded on fundamental swing elements and making improvisation the focus since it wasn't concerned with making people dance. Many didn't care for bop initially for this reason and in this case actually helped what came before. Post bop was enhanced by bop but it never detached itself and musicians always studied the bop lineage as a point of reference in moving forward. So again you have new musical directions that really had a positive effect on what preceded them. 

As to the Beatles... From my view it wasn't the Beatles that hurt what preceded them but the media. Musically it wasn't new. They were singing and playing silly pop songs but the perception in how they were presented changed everything. So one could debate was it a style that actually hurt what came before them or was it this new type of focus by the media and how they were presenting certain artists. Whatever the case the creative culture definitely took a hit during this time and I'm not sure if it ever recovered.  

R&B artists...particularly during that time... could never as you know get that kind of media attention but musically that's where the fresh and innovative things where happening. We just didn't see it. I was watching the Ed Sullivan show the night the Beatles came on in February 64 and enjoyed their presentation but felt little or nothing from them musically but was caught up in the hype. What most of the public was seeing and hearing were musicians like the Beatles playing like and talking about all the great artists that influenced them but we rarely saw or heard those artists on the exploding concept of TV during this time. Kind of like the cart before the horse if you know what I mean. 

Jae Sinnett


--- On Mon, 8/18/08, louisx at verizon.net <louisx at verizon.net> wrote:

> From: louisx at verizon.net <louisx at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [JPL] Jazz and RnB
> To: jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
> Date: Monday, August 18, 2008, 11:30 AM
> This week's sponsor:  Resonance Records
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> liner notes, which are worth a read.  Cathy is supported by
> Tamir Hendelman on piano, Dave Carpenter on bass and Vic
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> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> The label Rock 'n' Roll helped the music cross over
> to the white audience. 
> R&B, while crossing over to white audiences to some
> extent, was still 
> considered black music, so the R&B label made it more
> difficult to cross 
> over than  the new label of "Rock 'n'
> Roll".  This is what I mean about 
> labels being meaningless. They are useful for marketing,
> period.
> 
> Regarding Atlantic Records, Ruth Brown's sales helped
> build that company, 
> but she ended up having to work as a housekeeper on Long
> Island for a long 
> time after her fame subsided. It wasn't until the
> R&B Foundation pressed 
> Atlantic for back royalties that Ruth Brown received part
> of the money she 
> was due.  As far as I know, neither Ahmet Ertegun nor Jerry
> Wexler had to 
> work as housekeepers after starting Atlantic.
> 
> Regarding the dumbing of jazz, new styles have always made
> things difficult 
> for the styles preceding them. Chuck Berry recorded his
> first hit material 
> when Muddy Waters suggested he do so for Chess Records.
> Berry's style 
> eclipsed Muddy's and ended the popularity of Chicago
> blues. The Beatles 
> wiped out all that preceded them even though they idolized
> all of that 
> music. It just happens. I actually think Norah Jones
> re-vitalized an 
> interest in jazz for young people. I don't think she
> had any effect on jazz, 
> but she brought a wider audience to the style, and surely
> spawned a new army 
> of standup bass players in rock music. While this may not
> be all that jazz 
> fans hope for, it's good.
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Jae Sinnett" <jaejazz at yahoo.com>
> To: <jazzproglist at jazzweek.com>
> Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 11:09 PM
> Subject: Re: [JPL] Jazz and RnB
> 
> 
> This week's sponsor:  Lisa Hilton
> 
> Composer/pianist Lisa Hilton's latest release,
> ''Sunny Day Theory'' heads to 
> jazz radio next week.  Hilton is joined by top talent Lewis
> Nash on drums, 
> Larry Grenadier on bass and Brice Winston on tenor sax. 
> Eighteen time 
> Grammy winner, Al Schmitt recorded and mixed the 12 track
> release.
> 
> What is the ''Sunny Day Theory''?  Hilton
> smiles, &amp;quot;My engineer 
> Larry Mah made me laugh recounting a 'Foggy Day
> Theory', so I countered with 
> a 'Sunny Day Theory' which basically assumes that
> difficulties, if embraced 
> honestly,  create opportunity for growth.  Life can be
> challenging: I've 
> realized after a rough year that the complex can be dealt
> with one step at a 
> time, that there can be depth in something as simple as a
> melody, beauty 
> within the blues, and that with tomorrow there is always
> the hope for a 
> sunny day.''
> LisaHiltonMusic.com
> ''Sunny Day Theory''/Ruby Slippers
> Productions promotion by Jane 
> Dashow/Jazzzdog.com
> 
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> 
> For sure Tom...without a doubt soul music's connection
> to the black church 
> is profound. Even Elvis was touched in this regard and I do
> believe he was 
> the first white artist to have a top ten hit on the R&B
> charts. I think he 
> had two hits there. Nat King Cole even had one or two songs
> there which was 
> interesting because most of his "hits" appeared
> on the pop charts. This was 
> after Rhythm and Blues replaced Billboard's
> "Harlem Hit Parade" as the 
> principle black music chart.
> 
> What I could never understand though was why Alan Freed
> started labeling it 
> rock and roll...particularly when his radio show in
> Cleveland at the time 
> featured primarily R&B artists. He was also very
> connected to and worked 
> with an African American record store in the area...and as
> I understand 
> it...featuring artists on his show with what the store was
> carrying. When he 
> left Cleveland and went to NYC he continued to promote
> R&B to a white 
> audience as rock and roll. Some black artists like Little
> Richard didn't 
> mind being labeled rock and roll. An interesting bit of
> irony here is that 
> there are only four black artists that are in the Rock n
> Roll Hall of Fame 
> and to also receive the Rhythm & Blues Hall of Fame
> Pioneer achievement 
> award. They were Little Richard, Fats Domino, James Brown
> and Ray Charles. I 
> do believe Bo Didley might have been added to the later but
> not totally 
> sure.
> 
> Arturo talked about Louis Jordan. Something that rarely
> gets mentioned about 
> him was that he was also a major black film personality,
> appearing in dozens 
> of so called "soundies" which were these somewhat
> strangely produced 
> promotional film clips and he also made several cameos in
> some short films 
> and mainstream features. And speaking of Wexler...Jordan
> had his most 
> successful year in 48...the year Wexler coined the phrase
> Rhythm and Blues 
> and Jordan dominated those charts then with about three
> major hits based on 
> his classic jump blues style and some boogie woogie. He
> sold millions of 
> records and was also considered to be one of the first
> black artist to have 
> crossover success with the white audience.
> 
> Jae Sinnett
> 
> 
> --- On Sun, 8/17/08, Tom Reney <tr at wfcr.org> wrote:
> 
> > From: Tom Reney <tr at wfcr.org>
> > Subject: Re: [JPL] Jazz and RnB
> > To: jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
> > Date: Sunday, August 17, 2008, 8:00 PM
> > This week's sponsor:  Lisa Hilton
> >
> > Composer/pianist Lisa Hilton's latest release,
> > ''Sunny Day Theory'' heads to jazz
> radio
> > next week.  Hilton is joined by top talent Lewis Nash
> on
> > drums, Larry Grenadier on bass and Brice Winston on
> tenor
> > sax.  Eighteen time Grammy winner, Al Schmitt recorded
> and
> > mixed the 12 track release.
> >
> > What is the ''Sunny Day Theory''? 
> Hilton
> > smiles, &amp;quot;My engineer Larry Mah made me
> laugh
> > recounting a 'Foggy Day Theory', so I
> countered with
> > a 'Sunny Day Theory' which basically assumes
> that
> > difficulties, if embraced honestly,  create
> opportunity for
> > growth.  Life can be challenging: I've realized
> after a
> > rough year that the complex can be dealt with one step
> at a
> > time, that there can be depth in something as simple
> as a
> > melody, beauty within the blues, and that with
> tomorrow
> > there is always the hope for a sunny day.''
> > LisaHiltonMusic.com
> > ''Sunny Day Theory''/Ruby Slippers
> > Productions promotion by Jane Dashow/Jazzzdog.com
> >
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > I would agree that there's a distinct sound to
> r&b
> > in the post-Wexler
> > period, and it's called Soul.  As a producer, he
> was
> > instrumental in
> > encouraging Ray Charles to mix the sacred with the
> secular,
> > to do what came
> > "naturally" to Ray, and the artistic as well
> as
> > commercial success of this
> > controversial innovation spawned soul music.  The
> style was
> > embraced by
> > countless other singers, most with either formal or
> > informal gospel
> > backgrounds (Aretha Franklin, Otis Redding, Percy
> Sledge,
> > OV Wright) and its
> > cultural vitality was reflected in jazz as well, from
> > Horace Silver's The
> > Preacher, Jimmy Smith's The Sermon, Mingus's
> > Wednesday Night Prayer Meeting
> > (the album Blues'n'Roots having been
> encouraged by
> > the Ertuguns at
> > Atlantic), to Lee Morgan's The Rumproller.  I
> think
> > it's also important to
> > remember that soul music had huge significance for
> African
> > American culture,
> > that this distinctly black idiom was soon getting over
> with
> > a mass audience,
> > and that it's connection with the church gave it a
> > substantial tie-in with
> > the Civil Rights movement.
> >
> > Gospel came with a very pronounced and dependable back
> > beat, and soul
> > reflects this.  Muddy Waters was working on something
> > similar in his blues,
> > which he characterized as having a "big drop
> after
> > beat," precise "like a
> > clock."  So the music definitely had a less
> > elasticized rhythmic feel than
> > what preceded it, and in turn it's had a strong
> > influence on subsequent
> > black dance music styles.
> >
> > I don't agree that pre-r&b jazz was performed
> first
> > and foremost with
> > "artistic achievement" in mind, except in
> rare
> > cases. There was a widespread
> > populist instinct in jazz from early on, and the music
> > generally straddled
> > the line between musical integrity and commercial
> success
> > once records began
> > being made in the 1920's.  Happily, for a couple
> of
> > decades, jazz was part
> > of the mix that Americans bought and paid for, but the
> > "hits" of that era
> > were hardly the cream of the crop of the great records
> we
> > appreciate in
> > retrospect.  I'd say the arrival of the pure
> artist in
> > jazz does not appear
> > until Bebop, but it's not like Bird and Diz
> didn't
> > seek commercial acclaim
> > either.
> >
> > As for that scene with Bird in the Eastwood movie,
> I've
> > heard that
> > criticized as not truly reflective of Parker's
> openness
> > about music in
> > general, that rather than mock a honking r&b tenor
> > soloist he would have
> > jammed with him-- and probably transposed keys to
> boot!
> >
> > Tom Reney
> > "Jazz à la Mode"
> > Monday-Friday, 8-11 p.m.
> >
> > WFCR 88.5 FM
> > NPR News and Music for Western New England
> > Hampshire House
> > 131 County Circle
> > Amherst, MA 01003-9257
> >
> > tr at wfcr.org
> > www.wfcr.org
> >
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Jae Sinnett"
> <jaejazz at yahoo.com>
> > To: <jazzproglist at jazzweek.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 12:33 PM
> > Subject: Re: [JPL] Jazz and RnB
> >
> >
> > > This week's sponsor:  Lisa Hilton
> > >
> > > Composer/pianist Lisa Hilton's latest
> release,
> > ''Sunny Day Theory'' heads
> > > to jazz radio next week.  Hilton is joined by top
> > talent Lewis Nash on
> > > drums, Larry Grenadier on bass and Brice Winston
> on
> > tenor sax.  Eighteen
> > > time Grammy winner, Al Schmitt recorded and mixed
> the
> > 12 track release.
> > >
> > > What is the ''Sunny Day Theory''?
> > Hilton smiles, &amp;quot;My engineer
> > > Larry Mah made me laugh recounting a 'Foggy
> Day
> > Theory', so I countered
> > > with a 'Sunny Day Theory' which basically
> > assumes that difficulties, if
> > > embraced honestly,  create opportunity for
> growth.
> > Life can be
> > > challenging: I've realized after a rough year
> that
> > the complex can be
> > > dealt with one step at a time, that there can be
> depth
> > in something as
> > > simple as a melody, beauty within the blues, and
> that
> > with tomorrow there
> > > is always the hope for a sunny day.''
> > > LisaHiltonMusic.com
> > > ''Sunny Day Theory''/Ruby
> Slippers
> > Productions promotion by Jane
> > > Dashow/Jazzzdog.com
> > >
> > > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > >
> > > Tom, good points. You, Eric and Arturo would all
> be
> > correct in that most
> > > of what you discussed in your posts reflects the
> > visionary variety and
> > > unpredictability of great R&B music prior to
> when
> > Jerry Wexler started
> > > producing those classic Atlantic sides. In my
> > view...and this was one of
> > > my main points in my initial post about this...
> was
> > that once Wexler
> > > started producing there became a predictability
> and
> > I'll even go as far to
> > > say...an expectation of the sound from that point
> with
> > most of
> > > R&B...simply because the intentions of
> producing
> > the music shifted. There
> > > always was a swinging kind of elasticity in the
> rhythm
> > of the music and
> > > while played primarily for dancing there still
> was a
> > high level of
> > > improvisation and Duke's Newport classic
> reflects
> > this. That started to
> > > change though with Wexler and it affected jazz
> > tremendously IMO.
> > >
> > > Obviously early so called R&B...although it
> > wasn't termed that before
> > > Wexler...was profoundly connected to jazz and
> visa
> > versa. So my opinion
> > > was if you take music that that was performed
> first
> > and foremost from the
> > > viewpoint of having an artistic achievement...and
> > shifting those
> > > intentions to now having a commercial success be
> your
> > priority...it is
> > > dumbing down the music. I'm reminded of the
> > classic scene in "Bird" when
> > > Parker walked into a theater and recognized a
> > saxophonist from one of the
> > > cutting sessions...playing this new kind of
> R&B
> > and the placed was packed.
> > > During their break Bird went in and stole the
> guys
> > horn and ran. They
> > > chased him and when caught he said..."I just
> > wanted to see if this horn
> > > could play in any key other than Bb."
> > >
> > > Jae Sinnett
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sun, 8/17/08, Tom Reney
> <tr at wfcr.org>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> From: Tom Reney <tr at wfcr.org>
> > >> Subject: Re: [JPL] Jazz and RnB
> > >> To: jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
> > >> Date: Sunday, August 17, 2008, 12:03 PM
> > >> This week's sponsor:  Lisa Hilton
> > >>
> > >> Composer/pianist Lisa Hilton's latest
> release,
> > >> ''Sunny Day Theory'' heads to
> jazz
> > radio
> > >> next week.  Hilton is joined by top talent
> Lewis
> > Nash on
> > >> drums, Larry Grenadier on bass and Brice
> Winston
> > on tenor
> > >> sax.  Eighteen time Grammy winner, Al Schmitt
> > recorded and
> > >> mixed the 12 track release.
> > >>
> > >> What is the ''Sunny Day
> Theory''?
> > Hilton
> > >> smiles, &amp;quot;My engineer Larry Mah
> made
> > me laugh
> > >> recounting a 'Foggy Day Theory', so I
> > countered with
> > >> a 'Sunny Day Theory' which basically
> > assumes that
> > >> difficulties, if embraced honestly,  create
> > opportunity for
> > >> growth.  Life can be challenging: I've
> > realized after a
> > >> rough year that the complex can be dealt with
> one
> > step at a
> > >> time, that there can be depth in something as
> > simple as a
> > >> melody, beauty within the blues, and that
> with
> > tomorrow
> > >> there is always the hope for a sunny
> > day.''
> > >> LisaHiltonMusic.com
> > >> ''Sunny Day Theory''/Ruby
> Slippers
> > >> Productions promotion by Jane
> Dashow/Jazzzdog.com
> > >>
> > >> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > >>
> > >> I had a memorable encounter with the
> garrulous
> > Jerry Wexler
> > >> at a Fabulous
> > >> Thunderbirds show at the Bottom Line on
> > Valentine's Day
> > >> in 1983.
> > >>
> > >> And this discussion of jazz and r&b
> reminds me
> > of a
> > >> line that T-Birds
> > >> guitarist Jimmie Vaughan said of his
> group's
> > conception
> > >> back in the 70's:
> > >> "We're just lookin' for a new
> way to
> > do the
> > >> boogie woogie."  If you go back
> > >> to the earliest piano blues recordings of the
> > 20's,
> > >> you'll hear the basics
> > >> of most that has developed since then in the
> way
> > of Kansas
> > >> City swing, jump
> > >> blues, New Orleans r&b,
> rock'n'roll,
> > soul-- the
> > >> unfolding of a half-century
> > >> of music is right there in prototypes created
> by
> > Cow Cow
> > >> Davenport, Pine Top
> > >> Smith, Roosevelt Sykes and countless others.
> > Listen to Joe
> > >> Turner and Pete
> > >> Johnson's 1938 "Roll 'Em
> Pete,"
> > and there
> > >> you'll hear reduced to voice and
> > >> piano the whole dynamic of big band swing. 
> Turner
> > sings
> > >> whole choruses
> > >> comprised of "Yes, Yes,"
> "Well,
> > Alright
> > >> Then," and "Bye Baby Bye,"
> that
> > >> mirror the call and response of reed and
> brass
> > sections,
> > >> and Johnson lays
> > >> down the basic rhythmic foundation that in a
> > larger group,
> > >> whether Basie,
> > >> Louis Jordan, T-Bone Walker, Jimmy Reed, or
> B.B.
> > King would
> > >> be played by a 3
> > >> or 4 piece section.  Robert Johnson's
> genius
> > as a
> > >> self-accompanied guitarist
> > >> in the mid-1930'a was his ability to
> maintain
> > a boogie
> > >> pattern while
> > >> simultaneously playing melodic lines.
> > >>
> > >> Doin' the boogie woogie, or as Count
> Basie put
> > it,
> > >> swingin' the blues, was a
> > >> sufficient pursuit for many musicians.  But
> blues
> > masters
> > >> like Duke
> > >> Ellington, Lester Young, Roy Eldridge, Billie
> > Holiday,
> > >> Teddy Wilson, and
> > >> Charlie Christian had broader musical
> visions, and
> > their
> > >> greatest work of
> > >> the 30's and early 40's reached a
> pinnacle
> > of
> > >> creativity in the swing idiom.
> > >> Nothing much was going to exceed these
> > achievements, and
> > >> thus it was
> > >> inevitable that the next generation would
> develop
> > greater
> > >> challenges for
> > >> itself.  Bebop was the result, and its
> fractured
> > melodies,
> > >> harmonic
> > >> complexities, and dance-defying polyrhythms
> made
> > it the
> > >> music of a select
> > >> listenership, while jump blues, r&b, pop
> and
> > >> rock'n'roll maintained a
> > >> danceable beat and lyrical subject matter
> enjoyed
> > by the
> > >> masses.
> > >>
> > >> Tom Reney
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > >> >
> > >> > Arturo Gomez wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> >> Blues has always had the jump aspect
> to
> > it making
> > >> it very danceable and
> > >> >> while pre-WW2 big band jazz graced
> many a
> > dance
> > >> hall and ballroom around
> > >> >> the
> > >> >> country much to the dancer's
> delight,
> > jump
> > >> blues was the dance music of
> > >> >> juke
> > >> >> joints and house parties especially
> in
> > areas
> > >> outside an urban hub.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> After WW2 it was difficult to keep
> big
> > bands
> > >> touring due to travel costs
> > >> >> so
> > >> >> many former bib band members scaled
> down
> > and began
> > >> creating combos, big
> > >> >> band
> > >> >> swing with jump blues sensibilities,
> this
> > was most
> > >> noticeable in Los
> > >> >> Angeles
> > >> >> with groups like Louis Jordan &
> > Tympany Five,
> > >> Roy Milton and his Solid
> > >> >> Senders, Joe and Jimmy Liggins &
> the
> > Honey
> > >> Drippers, Roy Milton, T-Bone
> > >> >> Walker, Pee Wee Crayton, Big Joe
> Turner,
> > Wynonie
> > >> Harris and many others.
> > >> >> Johnny Otis the "Godfather of
> > RnB" who
> > >> came out of the territorial big
> > >> >> band
> > >> >> scene as a drummer knew a good thing
> when
> > he saw
> > >> it and opened up the
> > >> >> Barrelhouse club on Central Avenue
> that
> > became
> > >> the hub for the new RnB
> > >> >> scene which are the real roots of
> rock n
> > roll,
> > >> basically RnB with a new
> > >> >> moniker. Forget that man from Tupelo
> and
> > Memphis,
> > >> Louis Jordan is the
> > >> >> King
> > >> >> of Rock n Roll in my book, a
> proto-typer
> > rapper as
> > >> well. Vote Jordan for
> > >> >> President !!!
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Arturo
> > >> >
> > >> > I have always thought that a number of
> > factors went
> > >> into the creation and
> > >> > growth of R&B. I think that the west
> > coast jump
> > >> blues that you mentioned
> > >> > was one of them. I have also thought
> that
> > >> Chicago's electric blues and the
> > >> > east coast vocal ensembles, descendants
> of
> > the Mills
> > >> Brothers and The Ink
> > >> > Spots, were also important factors in
> the
> > development
> > >> of R&B. And of
> > >> > course, there is New Orleans which has
> also
> > was
> > >> rocking early on.
> > >> >
> > >> > It's interesting to note that Johnny
> > Otis, the man
> > >> you called "The
> > >> > Godfather of R&B" is Greek.
> > >> >
> > >> > Some years ago, when Bryant Gumbel was
> > hosting the
> > >> Today Show, they did a
> > >> > week long feature on the history of rock
> and
> > roll.
> > >> They interviewed Bo
> > >> > Didley, Jerry Lee Lewis, Little Richard
> and
> > Chuck
> > >> Berry. They asked Chuck
> > >> > who was the first rock and roller. He
> said it
> > was Fats
> > >> Waller. I have a
> > >> > book called "What Was The First
> Rock
> > & Roll
> > >> Record?" The first thing
> > >> > listed is "The Blues pt 2"
> from the
> > JATP
> > >> session in LA on July 2,1944.
> > >> >
> > >> > I just interviewed author John Fass
> Morton
> > about his
> > >> book, "Backstory In
> > >> > Blue: Ellington at Newport '56. He
> and
> > several of
> > >> the people he
> > >> > interviewed in the book refer to
> Diminuendo
> > in Blue
> > >> and Crescendo in Blue
> > >> > as R&B. I had never thought of it
> that
> > way but
> > >> after I listened again, I
> > >> > could certainly hear what they were
> saying.
> > Those two
> > >> pieces were written
> > >> > in either 1937 or 1938. Basie and Lionel
> > Hampton's
> > >> Big Band both recorded
> > >> > music that sounded sounded like R&B.
> > >> >
> > >> > Eric Jackson
> > >> > Mon - Thurs 8 pm - mid.
> > >> > 89.7 FM WGBH Boston
> > >> > www.wgbh.org/jazz
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >>
> > >> Jazz Programmers' Mailing List:
> > >> jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
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