[JPL] Why Americans Don't Like Jazz....

Mark Hayes mark.e.hayes at gmail.com
Tue Mar 20 14:16:27 EDT 2012


I am, as always, grateful for the wisdom of the folks on this mailing list.
 I will now go and listen and think and listen some more!

Mark

On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Ron Gordon <ron51745 at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Anyone can stay or be as aloof as they want to be about the subject of
> Jazz. It never surprises me that whenever the issue of Jazz is discussed
> without a correct "cultural frame of reference," vis-a-vis, born out of the
> African American experience, and all that takes into the hereditary
> existence of the art form, somehow the idiom becomes fair game for anyone
> to define it according to their whim or caprice. True paradigms of artistic
> greatness who were not necessarily devotees of the Jazz idiom instinctively
> knew instantly that they were hearing something extraordinary and
> profoundly prodigious in musical scope, integrity and majesty being played
> and performed by people whose ancestors on this continent were, at one
> time, slaves! For anyone not to take into consideration the connection
> between culture and intellect and the key role that each plays in
> evaluating how people relate to an art form says, to me anyway, that the
> person doing the evaluating either is not listening or has never really
> understood the connection between the two ideas to form an unbiased point
> of view on the subject of Jazz. Putting lipstick on a pig does not in any
> way make the pig less of a pig. The article in question makes many salient
> points that I am in total agreement with.
>
> Ron Gordon
> ABC News [New York]
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Jae Sinnett <jaejazz at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > Mark, the assumption wasn't that singers just turn into instrumentalists.
> > The writer's point IMO, was that when you're listening to vocals sung in
> a
> > language you don't speak...it can literally have the same
> interpretation-al
> > effect of say a saxophone solo. Texturally different yes but the same
> point
> > of departure.  An instrumental solo often sounds to many like a foreign
> > language. For me that's an interesting co-relation and I've taught from
> > that perspective before and it does for me add to the reasoning that some
> > non english speaking cultures can embrace instrumental music more easily
> > than Americans. The voice becomes the horn or guitar...etc...in that
> > context. What other way can you interpret it? He was saying that the
> > majority of cultures listen to English speaking music...mainly in the pop
> > arena... so considering the inability to discern what is being said the
> > voice is literally another instrument...no different in them trying to
> > understand a sax
> >  solo which becomes for the brain...abstract formulation...particularly
> > with improvisation when it's a new listening experience. "Composed"
> > music is planned and thought out and not nearly as abstract as
> spontanenous
> > interplay.  It's abstract because no other music is played like
> jazz...with
> > the level of interactive harmonic and rhythmic improvisation. None. So if
> > your exposure has been limited to pop culture, yes jazz will be very
> > abstract for your flabbers and brain to comprehend.
> >
> > Jae Sinnett
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Mark Hayes <mark.e.hayes at gmail.com>
> > To: jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 12:18 PM
> > Subject: Re: [JPL] Why Americans Don't Like Jazz....
> >
> >
> > Good day, all --
> >
> > Having read the article in question, I have to fall in with Larry.  The
> > article makes a number of assumptions that I would take issue with.
> There's
> > a difference, for example, between taste and aesthetics. There's a huge
> > assumption in writing, of non-English speaking listeners, that "Singers
> > turn into just another musical instrument."  I also take great issue with
> > the notion that "to be able to enjoy instrumental music, you must be able
> > to appreciate abstract art."  While there aren't a lot of instrumental
> > tunes that become big hits, "Green Onions" is as abstract any one of a
> > thousand pop songs.
> >
> > While I might agree that the mighty mainstream of American culture can be
> > lowbrow at times, I would disagree that there's anything exceptional
> about
> > American taste in music -- for better or worse.  The pop charts in many
> > countries are filled with "lowbrow" fare.  Whatever is meant by lowbrow,
> of
> > course.  Me, I appreciate a good pop song in any language.  But that's my
> > taste -- what I like. Aesthetics, which I understand to more systematic
> and
> > philosophical, relates to how we define what is art -- or not.  But I
> would
> > say that popular music, with lyrics and vocal performances, can have an
> > aesthetics applied to it as well.
> >
> > All in all, I think the article waded into waters too deep.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Mark
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 20, 2012 at 11:52 AM, Bobby Jackson <ftapache1 at sbcglobal.net
> > >wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I enjoyed the piece and its perspective.  @ Larry.  It seems the tone
> of
> > > your response to the piece was annoyance and you were very dismissive.
> > >  What did you not like about it?  Was there anything about it that you
> > felt
> > > had value?  Just curious.
> > >
> > > Bobby Jackson
> > > THE JAZZ MIND
> > > www.thejazzmind.com
> > > ftapache1 at sbcglobal.net
> > > phone: 216.288.4422
> > > skype: bjackson10106
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Mar 20, 2012, at 9:24 AM, Jae Sinnett wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > I think so too BH. Very interesting piece. Eric posted it and I was
> > just
> > > commenting.
> > > >
> > > > Jae
> > > >
> > > > Sent from my Verizon Wireless Phone
> > > >
> > > > "Hudson, B.H." <bhhudson at NCCU.EDU> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Excellent article, Jae. Thanks for posting that. I think it was
> > Stanley
> > > Crouch who made the observation that Americans have no interest in the
> > > aesthetic. Americans don't get it. And don't want to get it.
> > > >>
> > > >> Add to that, most college students here at NCCU listen to
> music/mostly
> > > rap on their phones equipped with eency, beency little speakers.  So
> now,
> > > the idea of quality of sound is lost.
> > > >> BH
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: jazzproglist-bounces at jazzweek.com [mailto:
> > > jazzproglist-bounces at jazzweek.com] On Behalf Of Jae Sinnett
> > > >> Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2012 12:37 AM
> > > >> To: jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
> > > >> Subject: Re: [JPL] Why Americans Don't Like Jazz....
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Eric...I found this to be a very interesting article. Intriguing
> > > points...particularly how non english speaking people interpret english
> > > speaking music. It becomes instrumental to them which helps to
> condition
> > > ears to instrumental music. Thanks for sharing this.
> > > >>
> > > >> Jae Sinnett
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> ________________________________
> > > >> From: Eric Gruner <eric at jazz901.org>
> > > >> To: jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
> > > >> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 9:56 PM
> > > >> Subject: [JPL] Why Americans Don't Like Jazz....
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> Why Americans Don’t Like Jazz  -    Dyske Suematsu  •  September 17,
> > > 2003
> > > >>
> > > >> The current market share of Jazz in America is mere 3 percent. That
> > > >> includes all the great ones like John Coltrane and the terrible ones
> > > >> like Kenny G (OK, this is just my own opinion). There are many
> > > >> organizations and individuals like Wynton Marsalis who are
> tirelessly
> > > >> trying to revive the genre, but it does not seem to be working. Why
> is
> > > >> this? Is there some sort of bad chemistry between the American
> culture
> > > >> and Jazz? As ironic as it may be, I happen to believe so.
> > > >>
> > > >> Read the full article at http://dyske.com/paper/778
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> Eric Gruner
> > > >> Jazz Host 9am - 11am
> > > >> JAZZ 90.1
> > > >> www.jazz901.org
> > > >> 585.966.5299
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >>
> > > >> Jazz Programmers' Mailing List: jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
> > > >> List information:
> > > http://lists.jazzweek.com/mailman/listinfo/jazzproglist
> > > >> List archive: http://lists.jazzweek.com/pipermail/jazzproglist/
> > > >> Sponsorship information: jplsponsor at jazzweek.com
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >>
> > > >> Jazz Programmers' Mailing List: jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
> > > >> List information:
> > > http://lists.jazzweek.com/mailman/listinfo/jazzproglist
> > > >> List archive: http://lists.jazzweek.com/pipermail/jazzproglist/
> > > >> Sponsorship information: jplsponsor at jazzweek.com
> > > >>
> > > >>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > > >> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud
> > > service.
> > > >> For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
> > > >>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > > >>
> > > >>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > > >> This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud
> > > service.
> > > >> For more information please visit http://www.symanteccloud.com
> > > >>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >>
> > > >> Jazz Programmers' Mailing List: jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
> > > >> List information:
> > > http://lists.jazzweek.com/mailman/listinfo/jazzproglist
> > > >> List archive: http://lists.jazzweek.com/pipermail/jazzproglist/
> > > >> Sponsorship information: jplsponsor at jazzweek.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > Jazz Programmers' Mailing List: jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
> > > > List information:
> > > http://lists.jazzweek.com/mailman/listinfo/jazzproglist
> > > > List archive: http://lists.jazzweek.com/pipermail/jazzproglist/
> > > > Sponsorship information: jplsponsor at jazzweek.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Jazz Programmers' Mailing List: jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
> > > List information:
> > http://lists.jazzweek.com/mailman/listinfo/jazzproglist
> > > List archive: http://lists.jazzweek.com/pipermail/jazzproglist/
> > > Sponsorship information: jplsponsor at jazzweek.com
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > *www.markehayes.net* <http://www.markehayes.net/>
> >
> > <http://www.google.com/reader/shared/mark.e.hayes>
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Jazz Programmers' Mailing List: jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
> > List information:
> http://lists.jazzweek.com/mailman/listinfo/jazzproglist
> > List archive: http://lists.jazzweek.com/pipermail/jazzproglist/
> > Sponsorship information: jplsponsor at jazzweek.com
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Jazz Programmers' Mailing List: jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
> > List information:
> http://lists.jazzweek.com/mailman/listinfo/jazzproglist
> > List archive: http://lists.jazzweek.com/pipermail/jazzproglist/
> > Sponsorship information: jplsponsor at jazzweek.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Ron Gordon
>
>
> --
>
> Jazz Programmers' Mailing List: jazzproglist at jazzweek.com
> List information: http://lists.jazzweek.com/mailman/listinfo/jazzproglist
> List archive: http://lists.jazzweek.com/pipermail/jazzproglist/
> Sponsorship information: jplsponsor at jazzweek.com
>



-- 
*www.markehayes.net* <http://www.markehayes.net/>

 <http://www.google.com/reader/shared/mark.e.hayes>


More information about the jazzproglist mailing list